Airbus big secret

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European

community

Post by Wayne Lundberg
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening

circuit boar

Post by Wayne Lundberg
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic

management

Post by Wayne Lundberg
teams and politicos?

I understand that the lead solder directive specifically excludes
Aerospace 'and other high criticality' applications, which rather
gives the game away that they know it fractures and don't care about
the consumer !

AWEM
(who has a cache of reels of 60/40 that probably will last him out)

Wayne Lundberg

2007-09-27 18:39:31 UTC

So what clues do we have about the wire harness problem other than this
ghost?

Post by Wayne Lundberg

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European

community

Post by Wayne Lundberg
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening

circuit boar

Post by Wayne Lundberg
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic

management

Post by Wayne Lundberg
teams and politicos?

I understand that the lead solder directive specifically excludes
Aerospace 'and other high criticality' applications, which rather
gives the game away that they know it fractures and don't care about
the consumer !
AWEM
(who has a cache of reels of 60/40 that probably will last him out)

Jim Stewart

2007-09-27 18:03:36 UTC

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening
circuit boar soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of
faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic
management teams and politicos?

Aerospace applications are exempt
from RoHS solder requirements.

Conveniently.

From Electronic Design magazine,
August 3, 2007

"The defense and aerospace industries are exempt from the European
Union's RoHS directive, so they haven't had to shift to lead-free parts.
The exemption was granted based on the need for the high reliability of
leaded solder in the high-stress environment and long shelf life of
defense and aerospace equipment. Lead helps mitigate the growth of tin
whiskers, which can grow on pure-tin solder, then break off, potentially
causing shorts."

Wayne Lundberg

2007-09-27 18:40:21 UTC

Thanks!

Aerospace applications are exempt
from RoHS solder requirements.
Conveniently.
From Electronic Design magazine,
August 3, 2007
"The defense and aerospace industries are exempt from the European
Union's RoHS directive, so they haven't had to shift to lead-free parts.
The exemption was granted based on the need for the high reliability of
leaded solder in the high-stress environment and long shelf life of
defense and aerospace equipment. Lead helps mitigate the growth of tin
whiskers, which can grow on pure-tin solder, then break off, potentially
causing shorts."

Mark Rand

2007-09-27 22:26:29 UTC

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:40:21 GMT, "Wayne Lundberg"

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Thanks!

Aerospace applications are exempt
from RoHS solder requirements.
Conveniently.
From Electronic Design magazine,
August 3, 2007
"The defense and aerospace industries are exempt from the European
Union's RoHS directive, so they haven't had to shift to lead-free parts.
The exemption was granted based on the need for the high reliability of
leaded solder in the high-stress environment and long shelf life of
defense and aerospace equipment. Lead helps mitigate the growth of tin
whiskers, which can grow on pure-tin solder, then break off, potentially
causing shorts."

Anyone else remember the (only a decade ago) problems that arose when gold
plated SIMM's were placed in tin plated sockets and vice versa?

Mark Rand
RTFM

Martin H. Eastburn

2007-09-28 01:05:46 UTC

Not thinking of Purple ... :-)

Yep - and then the tant cap issue out of Taiwan..
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/

Post by Mark Rand
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:40:21 GMT, "Wayne Lundberg"

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Thanks!

Aerospace applications are exempt
from RoHS solder requirements.
Conveniently.
From Electronic Design magazine,
August 3, 2007
"The defense and aerospace industries are exempt from the European
Union's RoHS directive, so they haven't had to shift to lead-free parts.
The exemption was granted based on the need for the high reliability of
leaded solder in the high-stress environment and long shelf life of
defense and aerospace equipment. Lead helps mitigate the growth of tin
whiskers, which can grow on pure-tin solder, then break off, potentially
causing shorts."

Anyone else remember the (only a decade ago) problems that arose when gold
plated SIMM's were placed in tin plated sockets and vice versa?
Mark Rand
RTFM

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-28 07:09:37 UTC

Post by Mark Rand
Anyone else remember the (only a decade ago) problems that arose when gold
plated SIMM's were placed in tin plated sockets and vice versa?

The first Tandy/ Radio Shack computers had the same problem long
before their were SIMMs. Tin plated PCB fingers, and gold flashed IDC
ribbon connectors. The problem was so bad that a company sold sets of
gold plated adapters to solder to the PCB fingers.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Carl Boyd

2007-09-28 00:49:31 UTC

Post by Jim Stewart
"The defense and aerospace industries are exempt from the European
Union's RoHS directive, so they haven't had to shift to lead-free parts.
The exemption was granted based on the need for the high reliability of
leaded solder in the high-stress environment and long shelf life of
defense and aerospace equipment. Lead helps mitigate the growth of tin
whiskers, which can grow on pure-tin solder, then break off, potentially
causing shorts."

Well now, just becase they are exempt from the lead free regulations does
not mean
that they don't have to deal with lead free parts. The aerospace and
defense industries
make up a small part of the electronics market. Many of the componet
suppliers are
going lead free on everything they make so they can sell in the global
market. If you know
where I can buy tin-lead finish chip resistors or capacitors please let me
know. Some
of the manufacturers are changing lead finish without prior notice. We
received some BGA
packages with lead free balls labeled as tin-lead (some manufactures don't
even re-identify
the parts when they o lead free) put them on the boards with the standard
process. We had
big problems with fractured soldered joints.

We are 5 to 10 years away from understanding all the ramifications of RoHS.

Carl Boyd

NewMan

2007-10-20 16:10:19 UTC

OUCH! I hate BGA at the best of times, but that really sucks!

Years ago I had a supplier that sent us AgPd plated chip caps. We
trashed an entire run of boards becuase of it. You CAN adjust the
thermal profile of the process to allow for it, but only if you KNOW
it is there!

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:49:31 -0400, "Carl Boyd"

Post by Carl Boyd

Well now, just becase they are exempt from the lead free regulations does
not mean
that they don't have to deal with lead free parts. The aerospace and
defense industries
make up a small part of the electronics market. Many of the componet
suppliers are
going lead free on everything they make so they can sell in the global
market. If you know
where I can buy tin-lead finish chip resistors or capacitors please let me
know. Some
of the manufacturers are changing lead finish without prior notice. We
received some BGA
packages with lead free balls labeled as tin-lead (some manufactures don't
even re-identify
the parts when they o lead free) put them on the boards with the standard
process. We had
big problems with fractured soldered joints.
We are 5 to 10 years away from understanding all the ramifications of RoHS.
Carl Boyd

Martin H. Eastburn

2007-09-28 01:04:09 UTC

Worse than falling off, they bridge between circuits.
Most critical in IC's and thick and thin film circuits.
But bulk head connection points can be a problem.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit
boar soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic
management teams and politicos?

Aerospace applications are exempt
from RoHS solder requirements.
Conveniently.
From Electronic Design magazine,
August 3, 2007
"The defense and aerospace industries are exempt from the European
Union's RoHS directive, so they haven't had to shift to lead-free parts.
The exemption was granted based on the need for the high reliability of
leaded solder in the high-stress environment and long shelf life of
defense and aerospace equipment. Lead helps mitigate the growth of tin
whiskers, which can grow on pure-tin solder, then break off, potentially
causing shorts."

c***@yahoo.com

2007-09-27 23:34:38 UTC

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit boar
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic management
teams and politicos?

Wayne,
The Europeans used the lead-free solder on the aircraft boards as a
demonstration that it could be done and would result in boards equal
to or better than leaded solder. We knew several years ago that Boeing
was doing the same thing. Last year we were told by a component
distributor from Seattle that Boeing was having a terrible time
getting their boards to pass the environmental tests which include
vibration testing, but they were able to solve their problems and are
now using all lead-free solder on their circuit boards. About the same
time we read that the new Airbus was being delayed for all sorts of
strange reasons, including the faulty wiring.

Several of our customers are now requiring us to build their products
using lead-free solder, including paste and wire solder. The smoke
from the flux used with the solder must be kept away from the
assemblers. It's pretty bad smelling and makes their nose and throat
sore. Other than the flux, the only real change is about 5 - 10
degrees higher temperature on the irons and convection oven.

This week we had a rework job on a bunch of lead-free boards. Remove
and replace a capacitor that was physically too large. We had to cut
the cap leads because the 20 watt and 40 watt irons wouldn't melt the
solder on the big copper pads. Today I got a 60 watt iron for next
time.

So lead-free solder is here, it works and we had better get used to
it. I think next year, all electronic devices from and to China have
to be lead-free and their requirements are more strict than the EU.
Japan and the rest of Asia will soon follow.

Bottom line, the EU will never admit their real problem and I don't
think they should. Only in America would we find whistle blowers and
blog writers that would reveal our problems.

Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.
www.jodeco.com

Jim Stewart

2007-09-27 23:59:57 UTC

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit boar
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic management
teams and politicos?

How much actual electronics does Boeing build?
I assumed that they purchased most of their
avionics, engine controls and entertainment
systems from other venders.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Several of our customers are now requiring us to build their products
using lead-free solder, including paste and wire solder. The smoke
from the flux used with the solder must be kept away from the
assemblers. It's pretty bad smelling and makes their nose and throat
sore. Other than the flux, the only real change is about 5 - 10
degrees higher temperature on the irons and convection oven.
This week we had a rework job on a bunch of lead-free boards. Remove
and replace a capacitor that was physically too large. We had to cut
the cap leads because the 20 watt and 40 watt irons wouldn't melt the
solder on the big copper pads. Today I got a 60 watt iron for next
time.
So lead-free solder is here, it works and we had better get used to
it. I think next year, all electronic devices from and to China have
to be lead-free and their requirements are more strict than the EU.
Japan and the rest of Asia will soon follow.
Bottom line, the EU will never admit their real problem and I don't
think they should. Only in America would we find whistle blowers and
blog writers that would reveal our problems.
Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.
www.jodeco.com

c***@yahoo.com

2007-09-28 00:36:22 UTC

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit boar
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic management
teams and politicos?

How much actual electronics does Boeing build?
I assumed that they purchased most of their
avionics, engine controls and entertainment
systems from other venders.

The Boeing company probably builds none, but are farmed out to
companies like mine to build to their specifications. I am sure they
thoroughly inspect each board, just like our customers do. We do no
work for Boeing, but are doing work for other aviation related
companies. Their boards are still using 63/37 solder.

Paul

Wayne Lundberg

2007-09-28 00:00:36 UTC

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit boar
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic management
teams and politicos?

Wayne,
The Europeans used the lead-free solder on the aircraft boards as a
demonstration that it could be done and would result in boards equal
to or better than leaded solder. We knew several years ago that Boeing
was doing the same thing. Last year we were told by a component
distributor from Seattle that Boeing was having a terrible time
getting their boards to pass the environmental tests which include
vibration testing, but they were able to solve their problems and are
now using all lead-free solder on their circuit boards. About the same
time we read that the new Airbus was being delayed for all sorts of
strange reasons, including the faulty wiring.
Several of our customers are now requiring us to build their products
using lead-free solder, including paste and wire solder. The smoke
from the flux used with the solder must be kept away from the
assemblers. It's pretty bad smelling and makes their nose and throat
sore. Other than the flux, the only real change is about 5 - 10
degrees higher temperature on the irons and convection oven.
This week we had a rework job on a bunch of lead-free boards. Remove
and replace a capacitor that was physically too large. We had to cut
the cap leads because the 20 watt and 40 watt irons wouldn't melt the
solder on the big copper pads. Today I got a 60 watt iron for next
time.
So lead-free solder is here, it works and we had better get used to
it. I think next year, all electronic devices from and to China have
to be lead-free and their requirements are more strict than the EU.
Japan and the rest of Asia will soon follow.
Bottom line, the EU will never admit their real problem and I don't
think they should. Only in America would we find whistle blowers and
blog writers that would reveal our problems.
Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.
www.jodeco.com

Thank you Paul, a real eye opener!

Carl Boyd

2007-09-28 00:35:18 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.com
This week we had a rework job on a bunch of lead-free boards. Remove
and replace a capacitor that was physically too large. We had to cut
the cap leads because the 20 watt and 40 watt irons wouldn't melt the
solder on the big copper pads. Today I got a 60 watt iron for next
time.

They may need "thermal reliefs" or "wagon wheels" in the artwork around the
leads. Large through hole leads into large plane areas of copper would also
do this will tin-lead solder. I assume the higher melting poit of lead free
solders will make this worse.

Carl Boyd

Carl Boyd

2007-09-28 01:05:35 UTC

Post by c***@yahoo.com
So lead-free solder is here, it works and we had better get used to
it. I think next year, all electronic devices from and to China have
to be lead-free and their requirements are more strict than the EU.
Japan and the rest of Asia will soon follow.

fact: Lead free solder is here.
fact: It works in some applications.
fact: it's long term reliability impacts are unknown.
fact: It's higher reflow temperature prevents the use of some of the better
high reliability PWB materials.
fact Lead is effectively just being replaced with other heavy metals with no
real proof that they are less hazzardous.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Bottom line, the EU will never admit their real problem and I don't
think they should. Only in America would we find whistle blowers and
blog writers that would reveal our problems.
Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.
www.jodeco.com

sparky

2007-10-23 03:24:23 UTC

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit boar
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic management
teams and politicos?

Wayne,
The Europeans used the lead-free solder on the aircraft boards as a
demonstration that it could be done and would result in boards equal
to or better than leaded solder. We knew several years ago that Boeing
was doing the same thing. Last year we were told by a component
distributor from Seattle that Boeing was having a terrible time
getting their boards to pass the environmental tests which include
vibration testing, but they were able to solve their problems and are
now using all lead-free solder on their circuit boards. About the same
time we read that the new Airbus was being delayed for all sorts of
strange reasons, including the faulty wiring.
Several of our customers are now requiring us to build their products
using lead-free solder, including paste and wire solder. The smoke
from the flux used with the solder must be kept away from the
assemblers. It's pretty bad smelling and makes their nose and throat
sore. Other than the flux, the only real change is about 5 - 10
degrees higher temperature on the irons and convection oven.
This week we had a rework job on a bunch of lead-free boards. Remove
and replace a capacitor that was physically too large. We had to cut
the cap leads because the 20 watt and 40 watt irons wouldn't melt the
solder on the big copper pads. Today I got a 60 watt iron for next
time.
So lead-free solder is here, it works and we had better get used to

It just does not work quite as well as "real" solder.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
it. I think next year, all electronic devices from and to China have
to be lead-free and their requirements are more strict than the EU.
Japan and the rest of Asia will soon follow.
Bottom line, the EU will never admit their real problem and I don't
think they should. Only in America would we find whistle blowers and
blog writers that would reveal our problems.
Paul Drahn, President
Jodeco, Inc.www.jodeco.com

William Noble

2007-09-28 06:06:16 UTC

wayne - others have pointed out that the assumption below about tin/lead
solder is incorrect - to find out more about the airbus, I'd encourage you
to read the trade press, including aerospace america, the AIAA magazine,
Spectrum (for electronics), and of course Aerospace and Devense Weekly and
Aviation Week - most of these will be at your local library and will provide
far more authoritative information

Post by Wayne Lundberg
Will it ever come out that the idiotic move by the European community
dictating the removal of lead from solder, and thus weakening circuit boar
soldered connection, and thus the grand problem of faulty wiring?
And are we being forced into the same conundrum by our idiotic management
teams and politicos?

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wayne Lundberg

2007-09-28 15:52:05 UTC